The people living in it
December 11, 2006You know what I hate the most about this world? The people living in it.
All nine Christmas trees have been removed from Sea-Tac International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested. Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. He had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn’t add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows.
Stuff like this piss me off. Minorities living in the west, get fcuking over the fact that we are a Christian culture. Our entire way of living is built upon the bible; even today, in our secular societies, Christian values are what shapes our way of living. Things like respect, freedom of speech, love thy neighbour, and more of that mushy stuff; it are all Jesus Christ’s teachings. If you want Jewish symbols during Christmas time, go to your local Synagogue, or book a flight to Israel. If you want Muslim symbols, go to your local Mosque or to your Islam country of choice.
I don’t see westerners demanding Christmas trees in Istanbul or Tel Aviv now do I?
Fcuking disgusting.
Uh… yeah. This is a case where someone with the right basic idea has completely f’ed up reasoning behind it.
Let me assure you that 99.9% of Jews couldn’t give two shits about Christmas decorations - in fact, like them. I love the Christmas season, and I love the decorations. Jews don’t care about this crap. Christians who hear ONE story about this happening ONE time do. Fundamentalists and extremists do. But when you hear people bitching about political correctness, it’s almost always the white protestant male trying to avoid a lawsuit or please a single troublemaker by pussyfooting around a stance. So you’re right to be pissed off.
But your reasoning is so fucked up I can’t even believe it.
Let me tell you something - I hear people carry on about this “built by white Christians on Christian values” nonsense all the time. It’s bullshit, Thom, and it’s flat out wrong (at least in the case of the US). The US was decidedly NOT founded on Christian values. The settlers in the US were running *FROM* religious persecution and they went to great lengths to separate church and state and NOT build Christianity or “Christian values” into our government. People who think that are generally misinformed and working with information they “heard” somewhere or read on a Geocities website or somesuch.
Judeo-christian “morals” are virtually the same, and it’s no surprise that most laws are based on moral interpretations of the most common religions of white people.
This business of “Minorities living in the west, get fcuking over the fact that we are a Christian culture” — that is the ignorant spouting of someone who simply DOESN’T KNOW any better. Doesn’t know what it’s like to have people make assumptions about you and what has offended you. Assumptions about you because they know about a rare quality. Assumptions about how you are ruining their culture and, subsequently, their society. To me, honestly, it’s no different than suggesting someone is a terrorist because they are Muslim. You don’t know. You make a grand assumption based on an article about some crazy extremist. You should know better - this calls into question your objectivity about *everything.*
You can’t lump all “minorities” together and make a generalized statement like that. First off, you’re wrong, and secondly, you sound stupid. I know you’re not stupid, so I encourage you to rethink what you’re trying to communicate. There’s a valid point in there somewhere, but between this and your previous rants on Israel, it’s lost behind the repressed anti-semitism.
Comment by Adam S — December 11, 2006 @ 8:55 pm
I’m sorry, I should’ve given you the Dutch context. There are two things you need to know.
One: in The Netherlands, we have a festivity called Sinterklaas. Sinterklaas is bearded old man (your Santa comes from this) from Spain who arrives here on a steamboat to give gifts to children. He rides a white horse over the rooftops, and he has this army of helpers, who are… Black. So basically, we have a white old man with black people as helpers (white folk with lots of make up). This festivity is extremely old and very rooted in Dutch culture (13th century).
You get the problem. Political correctness is now pressing down upon this age-old festivity, because of its so-called racist nature. And yes… They are now trying to introduce green and yellow helpers.
Two: there’s this treat, called a Negerzoen (Negro’s kiss), which is a small waffle with a big puff of eggwhite foam on top covered in chocolate. The thing is about 2-3 centuries old.
After protests, the name was changed into just “kiss”. Nobodoy really knew who litigated who, but no black man or woman in this country had ANY problems with the name of the thing. Many black people were interviewed on the news, and they were UNABLE to find ANYONE against the name.
I hope this context helps you a bit. I am simply appalled at how easily century-old customs are changed because of things like this. I am a very “traditionalistic” man (ok, boy) and I value our heritage and culture a great deal– without being blind for our darkest pages, of course (we Dutch were the biggest slavetrading nation of the world, for instance). Traditions and customs is what hold a ntion together, so they are something to cherish. Without them, a country or culture loses its identity.
How would you feel if religious folk started litigation to get nudity banned from museums? You know, ancient Greek/Roman art, or paintings from Rubens?
Comment by Administrator — December 11, 2006 @ 9:47 pm
We’ve secretly replaced
Thom Holwerda with Bill O’Reilly, let’s see if anyone notices.
Methinks you are forgetting the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment.
Comment by mikesum32 — December 11, 2006 @ 10:02 pm
Well, context helps a lot in this case, because now it’s a real discussion.
You see, I’m very mixed on these things. I value tradition highly, but I’m torn when the tradition is clearly exclusive and or offensive. It’s also very hard to evaluate as a white guy, because, well… you’re not black, so you’re not “vicitimized” (if you can call it that). I can’t imagine feeling good about black helper elves, which are kind of akin to slaves, but what do I know?
I don’t know where tradition stops being a valid reasoning for something that clearly bothers some of my citizens. But obviously, somwhere.
My grandmother tells me that the candy called Sugar Babies used to have a variant called “Chocolate Babies.” My grandmother hasn’t uttered a racist term in her life knowingly, but she tells me that as kids, she remembered going into a candy store with her sisters and buying candy that was actually CALLED “Nigger Babies.” Times change, and the question is, what *should* change with it, and what is solidly rooted tradition?
I’m not fit to answer. The US is only 231 years old and we don’t have long standing tradition. In fact, MOST US trandition is from the last 60 years, even though people tend to think our traditions are very old.
Peronally, I think Negro’s Kiss is pushing it, but black elves don’t seem particularly offensive *to me.* But I bet you most of the people pushing instituting the yellow/purple changes are mostly white. It’s just ground that isn’t worth treading when the world is run by CASH MONEY.
> How would you feel if religious folk started litigation to get
> nudity banned from museums?
For the record, that would REALLY piss me off, because I don’t believe in organized religion and tend to think religion causes more problems than it solves. But alas, that’s not far from where we are in the US today. This is exactly what happens when you allow religion in your government, to refer back to the first point.
Comment by Adam S — December 11, 2006 @ 10:11 pm
Personally, I think that at least in US, Christmas is more of a pop-culture rather than strictly religious these days. When you see it as pop-cult, that rabbi is wrong to request removal of the tree. It’s like requesting to not hold flags on a 4th of July.
Besides, the Christmas tree was originally a pagan tradition that was later mixed up with Christian beliefs.
Comment by Eugenia — December 11, 2006 @ 10:48 pm
Sorry, Thom, but the people who tore down the Christmas tree, and you, are both wrong. Your post wasn’t clear on this point, but so is the Jewish rabbi, if he threatened to sue to get the menorah up.
(It sounds to me as if he asked for a menorah, then threatened to sue the airport for the cretinously stupid decision of tearing down the Xmas tree? Is this wrong? Unfortunately, I don’t yet know of anywhere where it is possible to hold someone criminally or civilly liable for being stupid).
Secondly, it’s especially appropriate to have a menorah up at this time of year because Hannukah starts on the 16th (and continues for a week). That doesn’t mean you have to start tearing down Xmas trees.
Adam S is right, most Jews couldn’t give a toss about Xmas, Xmas decorations, or Xmas songs (hey, I even like a few, even “Gaudete”, which contains the particularly un-Jewish sentiment “Christus est natus” (Christ is born)). You’re more likely, I think, to offend a non-Jew by saying “happy Channukah” (assuming they know what that is) than offend a Jew by saying “Merry Xmas”. I would have said most of what Adam S says myself.
But you’re completely wrong to imply that because Netherlands is a majority Christian country, Muslims and Jews and God knows what else should just f*ck off. For one thing, that’s not a very good application of Jesus’s teachings, most of which can be applied equally by Jews, Christians, and Muslims because /he/ considered himself Jewish (the Muslims consider him a prophet).
For another, it’s certainly true that there is a problem with Muslim extremists, but like all extremists, they are a minority who ruin it for everyone else. When you get extremists from minority cultures, that means they are a minority in a minority.
If you don’t think that Christians can be extremists, you need to look for information on the Irish Republican Army, mate. And to the people who tear down Xmas trees to avoid offending non-Christians. They’re not violent, but they are extreme, and usually Christian.
Comment by Jeff Rollin — December 12, 2006 @ 11:03 am
You somehow magically assume I’m Christian, which in fact I’m not. I don’t support any religion, because for me religion serves no purpose.
You also focus way too much on the fact that the guy was Jewish. I don’t care what his religion was, it is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. The subject is that we esp. here in the ‘old’ world have traditions that date all the way back to pre-Roman times, and they are a very important link to our past. Throwing them out with the bathwater just like that, just because other religions and cultures are now making inroads to our country.
I don’t know if the guy actually asked (but I suppose he did) and that is indeed the right course of action. However, we (and you Americans as well, assuming you’re American) live in the free world, and hence that manager has the full right to say “no”. It’s HIS mall, it’s HIS responsibility. What’s next, people going to court because I won’t put up a menorah next to my Christmas tree in my own damn house?
Let me make myself very clear that this does NOT go for government agencies and institutions. These must be completely free of any form of religious symbols; no crosses, no stars of David, no headscarfs, nothing.
Comment by Administrator — December 12, 2006 @ 5:56 pm
The IRA have nothing to do with religious extremism. The culture they come from might be Catholic, but they aren’t.
Comment by dave — December 12, 2006 @ 9:38 pm
Thom,
Well, I assumed you were Christian because you kept pointing out that the Netherlands was built on Christian values. My argument was that there was room for all, which is why, imho, both you, people who demand “black Jesuses” and such, and the guy who demanded the removal of the Xmas tree, were all wrong.
BTW, no, I’m British.
Comment by Jeff Rollin — December 13, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
dave,
I wasn’t implying that the IRA’s motivations were religious extremism, only that they are Christian and extremist.
Comment by Jeff Rollin — December 13, 2006 @ 1:58 pm