Meaningless terms like “pop” and “indie”
October 8, 2007There’s something about my favourite past time (music) that I need to get off my chest.
I hate this stupid “indie” word, just as I hate the word “pop”. They are useless terms, and don’t have any intrinsic meaning. “Pop” means “popular”, “indie” means independent. They are not mutually exclusive, and no, they do not describe a musical style or sound. They describe, well, the stuff that is irrelevant: popularity, what kind of label they’re signed to, that sort of pointlessness.
I have a fairly nice album collection sitting right behind me in my music closet. I am a fan of many bands and artists - but I barely know a thing about each of those artists’ or bands’ personal lives. Heck, I don’t even know the names of the members of the best band ever, The Eagles! I can barely recognise them if I bumped into them on the street.
Why is this? Because I don’t give a flying monkey butt about the people behind the music (save for Fiona Apple, who I’m madly in love with). They are irrelevant, and the way they lead their lives, their popularity, and their labels mean nothing to me. What I care about, is the art they present me with. The art is their legacy, and that art is what they ought to be judged upon - not their characters or their personal lives.
If you guide your musical decisions based on meaningless terms like “pop” and “indie” (”I like it/do not like it because it is indie/pop”), then you simply don’t care about music at all - you just care about the image listening to that music gives you.
Music | 
Calling something indie or pop is not irrelevant. These are words that describe something, and people need the distinction. Indie is not a form of music but rather a state, although pop *is* a form of music you like it or not (in the western world, pop *has* a specific sound and it has become a form of music, on other cultures it’s different and it just means “popular” or “pedestrian”). Words exist because we need to make clear a few things. Therefore, your blog post doesn’t make sense. The fact that you know nothing about band members — neither do I — does not make irrelevant words that exist that describe stuff.
Comment by Eugenia — October 10, 2007 @ 6:18 am
Indie is not a form of music but rather a state
Yes, an irrelevant state.
although pop *is* a form of music
No it’s not. 50 Cent is pop music, Katie Melua is pop music, Marylin Manson is pop music, The Police is pop music. Yet, musically, these four have absolutely nothing in common.
Words exist because we need to make clear a few things.
Yes, in this case, irrelevant things. It’s the music that matters, not popularity or what label they’re signed to.
Comment by Administrator — October 10, 2007 @ 6:41 am
There used to be this image with a little bit of text circulating around a few years ago. I ‘ll try to capture the feel of it as best I can, as I can’t find it.
“I’m so cool, I listened to a band deep underground inside a soundproof bunker by myself, and then killed the band so I’m the only who knew they ever existed.”
And regarding the Eagles, here’s a quick rundown Glenn Fry, Don Henley, and Joe Walsh are the people that spring to mind, although Joe wasn’t an original member, AFAIK.
Glenn Fry had a lot of 80s hits with the help of Miami Vice. Smuggler’s Blues, You Belong To The City, and The Heat Is On.
Don Henley, had solo hits too. The End Of The Innocence, The Last Worthless Evening, Boys of Summer, The Heart Of The Matter, All She Wants To Do Is Dance, and Dirty Laundry
Don Henley also did some duets. including Leather and Lace with Stevie Nicks of Fleetwood Mac.
Before Joe Walsh joined the Eagles he had a hit with The James Gang
Walk Away, and later he had some solo hits.
Life’s Been Good to Me So Far, Rocky Mountain Way (live), and Ordinary Average Guy
Jackson Brown co-wrote Take it Easy. I guess he was friends with the band or something. He had a bunch of hits on his own. Top three famous ones are Running on Empty, Somebody’s Baby, and a live song called The Load Out / Stay Stay is a cover song.
/music nerd
//listened to oldies and modern radio as a kid in the early 90s
Comment by mikesum32 — October 10, 2007 @ 8:15 am
>Yes, an irrelevant state.
Thom, you are talking out of your ass and you confuse matters. You being out of job is an irrelevant state for some people too. This doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant for everyone, or irrelevant in itself either to the point that the word “unemployed” should not exist. The fact that the word “indie” does not change the way we are listening to music does not mean that the word should not exist, because the word HOLDS VALUE on a DIFFERENT context. Words exist because they are needed for specific contexts.
>No it’s not. 50 Cent is pop music
He is “popular” music, not pop music. While the pop music word did originally meant “popular”, it does not mean just that today. In the early ’80s Pop music BECAME a *genre* of music. This is why I said that in the western world “pop” is a genre, while on other countries means just that: popular.
And this is why the iPod and every other mp3 player I know have a specific EQ setting for “pop”. If 50Cent’s sound was the same as Madonna’s, then Apple would never create an EQ setting for so different kinds of music because simply that would not work… mathematically.
So, please hear me out on this.
Comment by Eugenia — October 10, 2007 @ 8:35 am
And this is why the iPod and every other mp3 player I know have a specific EQ setting for “pop”. If 50Cent’s sound was the same as Madonna’s, then Apple would never create an EQ setting for so different kinds of music because simply that would not work… mathematically.Eugenia, are you going to submit a scientific proof ?
Comment by mikesum32 — October 10, 2007 @ 8:50 am
Thom, be serious and don’t be defensive please.
It is not algorithmically possible to have a *working* EQ preset without having a kind of beat that DEFINES a music genre. Pop music in UK, USA, France, elsewhere, and even Greece is a GENRE of music, it doesn’t mean “popular” *anymore*. Take it with the Dutch people if you have a problem with that or if you were never educated yourself about this.
Pop music is Madonna, Michael Jackson, all the boy bands, and Spears. Heavy metal bands, rappers and so on, are NOT pop music, they are simply happen to be “popular”. The two words had a SCHISM many years ago in context, even if they origin is the same.
And if you don’t believe me, just read the fucking wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music
“Pop music (or “pop”) is a subgenre of contemporary popular music that typically has a dance-along rhythm or beat, simple melodies and a repeating structure.” There are no heavy metal bands or rappers listed there either.
For the last time, in the western world Pop music *has become a genre*, and it has its own sub-genres too, as every genre that respects itself.
As for indie music, as we hopefully have established above, it is anything that doesn’t abide to the big-4 labels. However, in the past few years, the indie word has had a schism in itself too. Indie bands most of the time are also synonymous to “alternative rock” music, which is a genre. While it’s possible to be an indie and be a jazz artist, if you do not define from the get go that you are a jazz artist, there is a *possibility* that your co-conversator will ASSUME that you are in that vast rock-ish genre.
Schisms happen. That’s evolution of the language and influences depending on how the market goes (e.g. if most indie bands were jazz, right now “indie” would also be *somewhat* synonymous to jazz).
Comment by Eugenia — October 10, 2007 @ 9:09 am
Pop music is Madonna, Michael Jackson, all the boy bands, and Spears.
Madonna is indeed pop…. But her music has had many different styles. She made latino music (La Isla Bonita, for instance) and electronic dance (Music) - and even music with a lot of Indian influences (that song on Ray Of Light). She’s made ballads too.
And you want to tell me all that fits under a musical style called “pop”?
Pop is just that - popular. Marylin Manson’s Mechanical Animals was a massive hit, and hence, it is “pop”. 50 Cent too.
For the last time, in the western world Pop music *has become a genre*, and it has its own sub-genres too, as every genre that respects itself.
Pop is not a defined genre like jazz, rock, folk, ska, and so on - these are defined genres, and whether you have jazz from today, or from 30 years ago, the lineage is clear.
Pop is an umbrella under which popular music of the particular era in discussion falls. In the late 50s and early 60s, it was rock and roll. Later in the 70s, it was disco. In the 80s, it was glamrock. In the late 90s and early 2000s, it’s hiphop and hiphop-like music, and even jazz and swing music has had its moments of pop lately (Robbie Williams with Swing When You’re Winning, for instance, or that Cullum/Callum/whatever guy).
That’s what pop is: a designation placed on music that is popular. These days, it’s hiphop and electronic dance (at least over here). In 15 years, pop will be something else completely.
Comment by Administrator — October 10, 2007 @ 11:58 am
Thom, you are talking out of your ass and you confuse matters. You being out of job is an irrelevant state for some people too. This doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant for everyone, or irrelevant in itself either to the point that the word “unemployed? should not exist. The fact that the word “indie? does not change the way we are listening to music does not mean that the word should not exist, because the word HOLDS VALUE on a DIFFERENT context. Words exist because they are needed for specific contexts.
Exactly! So we agree that it has no influence whatsoever on the music itself? Because THAT’s what you’re saying here, and it’s EXACTLY what I’m saying too.
If you care about music, the term “indie” does not have any intrinsic value. Whether something is “indie” or not has zero squat nothing nada influence on the art itself, and hence, if you care about the art, terms like “indie” are pointless.
Comment by Administrator — October 10, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
>And you want to tell me all that fits under a musical style called “pop”?
Yes, the overall style is pop music. And I am telling you, it’s a genre. And I am stopping right here about this because you are a donkey about it.
>Whether something is “indie” or not has zero squat nothing nada influence on the art itself, and hence, if you care about the art, terms like “indie” are pointless.
I never disputed that, but the term indie is valuable on other contexts. For example, if you want to find a video clip from a said group, you probably going to find none. The recording will be cheaper. The distribution will be less of it too. So Indie is a state, and it has its place in many contexts. And as I explained above, since the last 3-4 years, it also implicitly means “alternative rock”, even if in reality indie is not a genre. 70%-80% of the indie artists are rock garage artists, and so the term has become synonymous, even if in reality it’s not.
Comment by Eugenia — October 10, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
And I am telling you, it’s a genre.
Jesus Fcuking Christ, take a look at that Wikipedia article you linked to, it wholeheartedly agrees with me!
It reads: “Pop music (or “pop”) is a subgenre of contemporary popular music that typically has a dance-along rhythm or beat, simple melodies and a repeating structure. Pop song lyrics are often emotional, commonly relating to love, loss, emotion, or dancing. The term does not refer to a single genre or sound, and its meaning is different depending on the time and place.”
Let’s look at this piece of text. The first bit clearly aligns with my ideas, as it talks about “dance-along rythm/beat, simple melodies, repeating structure”. That could be anything! Jazz can be those things, rock can be those things, hiphop can be those things, heck, even classical music can easily be those things!
The second part (bold) needs no comments.
In other words, I am right about his one, and it is YOU who is being the ‘donkey’ about this one. I know my shit when it comes to music Eugenia.
Comment by Administrator — October 10, 2007 @ 6:33 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_pop
This is what a British person refers to as “Indie”. The Americans use the term incorrectly to mean “inde label music”, but in the UK Indie bands could be on a major and still be classed Indie. Indie is a specific sound. Jangly guitars, soulful lyrics. Stuff like the Smiths, early Blur, Suede, Stone Roses, Soup Dragons, Charlatans. Some got re-classified as sub genres like Baggy and Britpop, but they’re all Indie or have Indie roots. Indie bands could also be on a Major lable too - it’s unlikely, but they could be.
The Americans use the term incorrectly. They actually mean “Indie Label music”, which is meaningless as you state. Us Indie isn’t really a specific style, where as UK Indie *is*.
We call “pop” music “chart” music in the UK now mostly. Pop really refers to the cheesy manufactured major lable stuff these days. Pop is a derogatory term really, it signifies something is not very cool or very commercial and specific to a particular demographic od 12 - 16 year olds.
Comment by memsom — October 12, 2007 @ 8:32 am
Perhaps it is you, memsom, that uses indie incorrectly. If not incorrectly, then correctly to you and your local culture. Indie is short for independent, and that it. Any other meaning is not as encompassing. Indie can and is a number of different things to different people. The wikipedia page you link to is indie_pop, while indie goes to the disambiguation page, which includes independent film, independent game development, independent music, indie pop, indie publisher independent record label, and indie rock !
Pop is short for popular, but I see where, Eugenia is coming from. It has taken on a negative connotation meaning mass market least common denominator manufactured crap. In a similar manner the word segregation is almost completely associated with racial segregation.
Thom is technically correct. The best kind of correct.
/Futurama
Comment by mikesum32 — October 13, 2007 @ 10:45 am
Do you know what is somehow good on labeling things? Is that I can say something is POP, and people will somehow understand something close to what I mean. If I say it is indie, the same will happen.
So I can just shorten things and say “you are a jerk”, and I am sure I will be understood. I love labels.
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