Cogs can think.

19 Messages »

1. You can spin it all you want. Point is, there is a large percentage of viewers who disliked the religious angle on the show. In any forum I’ve seen about BSG, especially the scifi-specific ones, there are always threads about it. Their very existence is a testament of the general disliking that it’s abound.

   In my opinion, religion and scifi don’t mix. God(s) are less likely that tirilium extraction, or whatever their spaceship fuel is called. So adding a religious angle, takes away the excitement and the believability of the show. It was like trying to sell the show to the Bible Belt. I am sorry to say that I am not the target demographic.

   Comment by Eugenia — March 21, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

2. Luckily, there are still people out there who try to push the envelope of scifi and come up with something new, instead of making yet another Star Trek or Alien rip-off.

   If you don’t like the religious aspect of BSG, then don’t watch it. It has been a core part of the series from day one, so it’s not like they sneaked it in mid-series, alienating the viewers.

   It would be like me going onto a “24″ forum and start complaining about how I don’t like the terrorist angle. It doesn’t make sense to complain about a core element of a show that has been there from day one, and has helped define the series. If such a major element of a show bothers you, then you are simply watching the wrong show.

   Comment by Administrator — March 21, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

3. Even if religion was part of the show from the beginning, they didn’t have to end it with God sending angels, and God this and God that. It was _ridiculous_. They could have spin either away from it completely, or giving a hint that God/angels are simply another alien race that doesn’t exist in our dimension or physical realm. This could be ok with me if they played it right. It could in fact be one big revelation at the end of the show.

   But leaving the matter as traditional God/angels, to me it means that it was God himself who put the machine in motion for all these wars that happened in the past. It was God in Kobol who fucked both Cylons and humans, it was God in the 12 Colonies who started the war (don’t forget, the Cylons started the war because they had a vision of God telling them to do so!!!), and at the end, it was God himself who planted the humans/cylons on Earth to re-populate and he’s currently STILL watching over them and PONDERS if he should put his dirty little finger to start a war anew or not.

   This, is nothing but an Old Testament kind of God who takes REVENGE upon his subjects — like in the Big Flood or something. With Adama being Noe or Abraham.

   Based on these remarks, I saw nothing that was “pushing the envelope”. If anything, it was a downright rip off of the Bible. And given that the Bible is a religious book, makes things worse for true scifi lovers, not better.

   As to why I kept watching the series: because it did have other aspects that were ok: the Cylon and technology and survival aspect. But I indeed disliked everything religious about it, and the over-the-top drama. BSG was too much of a soap opera. And me, as a true geek, I dislike series that are space equivalent of Dynasty or Dallas or any of these crappy, boring, shows where the characters would collide with each other for no apparent or logical reason.

   Frankly, that’s an aspect I dislike on Lost as well. Watching Kate-based episodes and all her stupid backstory (robbing a bank for a toy airplane? come on!), is also an exercise in patience. I watch TV shows to be entertained, and over the top drama doesn’t do it for me. I do like social commentary, but I like it ST:TNG style: real questions of the next century, not questions about things that I ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER for.

   For example, the whole racism/religion/political questions posed on BSG are not challenging for me. I am not 16 years old anymore, trying to figure out if I would ever get over my prejudice for the skinjobs and accept them as equals. I am 35 years old. And I know that I would accept them. So the whole drama around it, is like watching kids arguing which football team is better. That’s how I feel about it. BSG is just beneath my mental state and world view right now. I needed something more radical. It was simply not challenging for me.

   As for Lost, it doesn’t really pose any questions (either than science vs faith — which is why I dislike Locke). It’s just sheer entertainment by being complex via different means (puzzles), rather than drama. It’s a different kind of “good show”. It’s more of a game rather than a TV show. But BSG was an actual TV show. And as such, I needed it to INTELLECTUALLY challenge me, and it didn’t manage to do that. I know that it did challenge a lot of people out there, including you, but to me, it wasn’t radical enough. And adding that crappy religious angle on it, just made things worse.

   Comment by Eugenia — March 21, 2009 @ 9:14 pm

4. Hi Thom, (Hi Eugenia)

   I am mostly with Eugenia on this one (scary that I like the same shows as she does, although I totally disagree with her on FOSS etc.)
   I liked the last episode because it gave the whole show a a thoughtful ending.
   Maybe it is just that I am used to shows that have very crappy seasons after good ones (Prison Break anyone?).
   I still think it could have been much better, though. The whole religion stuff just sucks. What is the message? God likes to kill lots of people probably.
   I like Richard Dawkins and I think religion is a cause for famine, diseases and war and it should be abolished by science.
   In the sense the ending is horrible, because it says exactly the oppisite.
   And I don’t want such a stupid believe system in my SciFi. But I am old enough to accept that some people need religion, because they don’t have the mental capacity to figure real good ethics out for themselves. (Or they need a place to morn their dead.)

   Comment by Kragil — March 22, 2009 @ 8:17 am

5. Sigh.

   I’m not upset because religion was part of the show, it’s always been there and it’s always been my favorite show.,

   I’m disappointed because answering everything with “God did it” or “God’s will” is completely and utterly unsatisfying,

   When Baltar gave his lets all be friends and put down our swords speech and Cavil went along with it I felt like throwing a brick through my TV.; I would’ve been infinitely more disappointed if it ended there, I was glad Galen blew the whole thing.

   Comment by Andrew — March 22, 2009 @ 5:37 pm

6. I never really minded the general religious aspects of the series - it was obviously pandering, but at least there was some nuance. There was some interesting juxtaposition, with the protagonists being polytheists, while the antagonists were monotheists.

   But the religious aspects of the finale were downright laughable - not because they were religious, but because they were examples of lazy writing. The finale was little more than a jumbled collection of “Deus Ex Machina” plot devices.

   It’s funny that you quote someone who sees it as some sort of contrast with the cheap plot devices of Star Trek - because there isn’t really any difference. If anything, BSG is much worse in that regard than any Trek series - Trek used cheap plot devices to resolve the plots of individual episodes, while BSG uses cheap plot devices to conclude the entire series.

   Comment by Stephen B. — March 22, 2009 @ 8:14 pm

7. RDM is a religious person, and he tried to put his own beliefs on BSG. This is of course what any artist should do, but when you also have an over-5 million worldwide audience, who are mostly into science fiction and science rather than religion, he needed to lay off some of his ideas for the good of the show. But he didn’t.

   He tried to become a prophet himself by tying together evolution and creationism. It was like saying “there’s no reason for the two sides to disagree with each other, there’s a middle way to accept both”. Pretty much the new age version of the debate. Sources: 1, 2.

   Nothing wrong with that, but having every major question answered in the show by “God did it”, is just ridiculous. Who are the Head characters? Angels working for God. Who is Kara? Angel in the physical world working unbeknown to her for God. Why the wars happened in the first place? God started them while trying to find the right recipe. Deus ex Machina (Από μηχανής θεός) over and over again. That was poor writing, or at the very least a forced opinion of the writer to the viewers.

   RDM’s view of the world is a revengeful God, an amoral experimenter of life, who uses humans and Cylons alike for his little game. Their Free Will is limited, and a lot of things are supposed to be predetermined — making the show less interesting as it’s like watching a procedural computer program run. Not to mention RDM’s anti-technology vibe, another opinion of his that I don’t support.

   I just somehow have trouble believing all what he’s trying to serve us. I am just not the target demographic to believe such Abrahamist and technophobe horseshit. It was like RDM removed “science” from “science fiction”. That’s something I can’t forgive as a viewer of the SyFy Channel.

   That, and the various plot holes (because they didn’t design the whole series from the beginning), the over-the-top drama (some episodes felt like a bad soap opera with nothing really happening), the flashbacks in the finale (pointless and at a wrong timing — they did them for financial reasons, I learned since yesterday), and the old-age social commentary that’s not progressive but instead it tries to tie up today’s social problems to the show (e.g. terrorists, Bush, 9/11 etc). I am personally not interest to see CURRENT themes allegorically. The current world doesn’t interest me or represent me, so I found the show very poor intellectually (same thing goes about “The Wire” btw, one of the best TV shows ever — as some say). But that’s just me.

   It is possible that I would have similar opinions for ANY TV show that doesn’t have a pre-determined number of episodes from the get go by the network, and have plotted everything from the beginning. This is why I hated “Lost” too between the second half of season 2, and first half of season 3. It was pointless, going nowhere. But from the moment the writers got the “ok” from ABC to end the show, the show started to fly. If only they had such an agreement from the beginning, I believe that “Lost” would have had 5 seasons and not 6, and as a consequence its ratings would have been higher.

   Having said all that, and going back to BSG, it was not a bad show. The tech involved, the Cylons, the battles, the mythology, they were all good. But it wasn’t as good as I would have liked it to be. In my opinion, BSG is overrated.

   However, I am sure BSG blows away “Caprica”, RDM’s new show. It is specifically advertised as a “drama” and not as science fiction. The science fiction elements will be minimal in the series. Between the two shows, I know that BSG would be more of my style.

   Comment by Eugenia — March 23, 2009 @ 12:48 am

8. Wow. I’m a big BSG fan, and it seems like my take on the whole religion angle was really different than a lot of other people’s, both its role throughout the whole series, and in the finale. In fact, I hadn’t even really occurred to me that the supernatural or “god” played a big part in the finale, though I can certainly see why people would think so, and there’s a good case to be made for it all being a “deus ex machina” cop-out ending.

   First, from where I’m coming from: I’m an arch secularist, and I think that religion poisons the public sphere whenever it isn’t held in check by an abstraction layer. By this I mean that it’s human nature to be both superstitious and dogmatic. Virtually everybody instinctively believes in the supernatural, even if it’s something as simple as a fear that if you mention that it’s been a long time since something bad happened, that you’ll “jinx it,” and cause something bad to happen, or a hope in life after death. We also cleave strongly to our beliefs, and will make swift judgments on other people based on their adherence to our beliefs. Our beliefs, however rational or irrational they are, form the basis for our individual moral code, and our moral code is the foundation for our political philosophy. As long as people can place a rational moral code (abstraction layer) in between their beliefs and their politics, we’re okay. It’s the best we can hope for, because once you abstract the dogma one level from the morals, there is room for discussion and compromise. By the way, I am also highly versed in religious doctrine from various denominations and have been somewhat of a scriptural scholar.

   I loved the religious angle in BSG, and thought it was one of the best aspects of the show. Religion in TV is done either not at all, or very simplistically. Not so in BSG. It’s all about conflict. The Cylons were monotheists and fanatics (though this varied by model, with Six being the most religious and Cavil just being cynical and calculating) who engaged in willful genocide out of belief in their righteousness. The parallel with radical Islamists was obvious, though not adhered to slavishly. The humans come from a culture steeped in historical belief in a polytheistic religion, with the educated cosmopolitan people almost entirely secular and non-observant, with the more rural folk very observant, causing a considerable amount of political friction. The social commentary aspect of all of this is very obvious, but there’s a long and glorious history of social commentary in SF, so I expect and delight in its inclusion in any good SF work. It was an astute observation to see how Adama and Roslyn coopted the religious belief of the masses for political gain, then vacillated in and out of believing their own stories throughout the series. Personally, I suspect that prophets and gurus have always spanned a wide spectrum in the degree to which they believe their own teachings, and most likely vacillate quite a bit themselves. When faced with obvious evidence of the supernatural, the characters were always a little shocked, though the Cylons were always much more devout and quick to accept supernatural explanations.

   But one of the delightful plot twists of BSG from about the mid point of the series on was that many of the ancient prophesies that most sophisticated humans considered to be baseless superstition turned out to have some basis in fact, and it came as a shock to them. What a cool and unusual idea for a science fiction story! It’s every bit as valid as the basic premise behind the supposed paragon of Atheistic fantasy, Pullman’s “His Dark Materials,” wherein God and the angels exist but are usurpers and tyrants who must be overthrown. The characters in BSG discover, to their shock, that not only are the ancient prophesies based in fact, but that the fanatical Cylons seem to have some factual basis for their beliefs as well. Some supernatural beings exist, and there seems to be some kind of prophesy or cyclical time at work, and nobody really understands it, and we don’t know if it’s God or gods or pan-dimensional, immortal beings or what, but something is going on.

   To be honest, I’d still like someone to explain the whole Dead Earth, final five Cylons, resurrection, dead Starbuck, Head Six and Head Gaius thing to me. But I think to assume, as many watchers did, that it’s all part of some kind of “God did it” cop-out is simply one very simplistic way of interpreting it. I see it all as more of a 2001-like incomprehensible, mind-blowing, subjective ending that leaves you thoughtful and a little confused.

   My main complaint with the ending was that in order to reach the “gotcha! Hera is the missing link!” surprise ending, the characters had to do some pretty crazy stuff. Why exactly did they need to drive their ships into the sun? (It needed to be done to explain why there isn’t a Galactica fossil in the Olduvai gorge) but surely even if they decided to forsake space travel, those ships would have been beyond valuable as temporary shelter and as a source of metal that didn’t have to be mined and refined. How could the injection of intelligent, tech-using humans and Cylons into prehistoric Earth have not led to instant modern civilization, instead of it taking 150,000 years to develop, as the story implies? It left behind any discussion of what happened to all of the other Cylons around the Universe (some or all of whom knew about Earth since there’s a rogue basestar that’s been there). In fact, in my mind it left a lot of questions about the Cylons and where they really came from (did humans invent them or not?) Tigh and Ellen created them? Who created Tigh and Ellen?

   But even though the surprise ending didn’t make any sense in a lot of ways, my main take on the whole idea was that the dying embers of each Cylon/Human civilization seed the beginnings of a new one, and it happens over and over in a never-ending cycle is a thought-provoking and thoroughly enjoyable one. It is and idea with religious overtones . . . Hindu ones. Now, this revelation that Head Six and Head Gaius are real, seemingly immortal, invisible beings which the humans call “angels” for lack of a better term, is certainly a twist. But it’s already been established that the supernatural is real. Prophesies have been fulfilled, many people have had visions that have come true. There’s definitely some kind of force at work, meddling in human events, and if you didn’t realize it until the last episode, you weren’t paying much attention. What’s the nature of these beings? It’s only hinted at.

   My conclusion: the ending was flawed but fun, left a lot of questions unanswered and strained believability in other areas. I’m sad to see the show go, but I’d rather see it go out in a blaze of nonsensical glory than slowly fade into decline or get cancelled without a conclusion, so I’m sad and happy.

   Comment by David Adams — March 24, 2009 @ 9:47 pm

9. But it’s already been established that the supernatural is real.

   Or, they could have twisted it at the very end and clearly say that these are alien beings of a higher plane that did all that, and not the good ol’ traditional “God”. Some sort of an affirmation about the NATURE of these beings should have been given if they are going to shove to me all answers in the finale with a “God did it”. It’s the leaving it in the old fashioned “God” state what I can’t bear.

   Comment by Eugenia — March 24, 2009 @ 10:26 pm

10. Eugenia, no one said ANYthing about it being “god”. That’s the interpretation WE as humans attached to it, because we don’t understand it. The humans in the series did the same thing.

    There is no evidence either way that the entity that governed this all is “god” as we understand it in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim sense - or something else altogether. It’s obvious that we as humans call it “god”, because we actually don’t understand it. The discussion we’re all having underlines that point.

    I present the example of the neighbour kid burning ants with a magnifying glass, or pulling out the legs of the spider. Try to position yourself in the position of the ant or the spider - do they have a clue what they’re dealing with?

    Now envision us humans as the ants and the spiders. There are things up there using their magnifying glass to burn us, their pliers to pull out our legs. However, because we simply can’t comprehend that idea - like the ants and the spiders can’t comprehend the neighbour kid - we have to describe it in away we do comprehend: a bearded guy being an asshole.

    Comment by Administrator — March 24, 2009 @ 10:50 pm

11. Great comment, David.

    It is and idea with religious overtones . . . Hindu ones.

    Yes, the hindu influences are clear all throughout the series. The song sung in the opening credits is part of a hindu hymne, the Gayatri Mantra.

    Comment by Administrator — March 24, 2009 @ 10:53 pm

12. interpretation WE as humans attached to it

    I don’t. It doesn’t represent me. Plain and simple. And yes, there’s a difference between using technobabble (in a science fiction show nonetheless), and using traditional age-old bullshit. If I wanted to watch something with angels and Gods, I would just watch a religious show. There are a lot of them after 3 AM on cable. I have a prejudice against religion, so anything that portrays a being as a “real” God, I have a problem with it. It doesn’t fit in my world view, and it definitely doesn’t fit in my ENTERTAINMENT.

    You know how this feels for me? Let me tell you: this feels like I have been in a car accident, and while I sit on my couch with broken bones, someone tells me “here, here, Eugenia! Here’s some entertainment for you! I brought you some cool DVDs to watch while you’re all broken up: formula 1 rallies!”

    Fuck that!

    And no, Star Trek’s Q (that you mention in your new blog post), was not a God. He WANTED to be seen as a God, but Picard told him to go screw himself. This is exactly what the BSG characters should have done too. Instead, they succumbed to his will. That’s the difference between BSG’s God (where the heroes eventually become believers of a “God”), and the Q (who essentially becomes the laugh of the town and his true self is revealed as simply another species).

    For you, they might not be different. But for me, they are. Religion has no place in my entertainment. Especially that Abrahamist/technophobe bullshit that RDM sold us all.

    Comment by Eugenia — March 24, 2009 @ 11:01 pm

13. Firstly, Glen A Larson peppered the original BSG with religion. With Larson it was all LDS, butitisstill there.

    Secondly,in the last scene, angel Caprica 6 corrects angel Baltar by retorting “you know he hates being refered to as God” - or words to that effect.

    Thirdly, higher beings was the answer in the original series. Doingot again would hardly have been original!!

    Finally, the sution totally tiesin withthevoice over from the beginning of TOS. “couldhave been the ancestors of the egyptians or toltecs or the….”

    Comment by memsom — March 25, 2009 @ 8:54 am

14. “Ripping off the Bible” is actually an ironic idea. When Glen Larson originally conceived of the original BSG, he called it “Adama’s Ark” and the whole idea was that Galactica was like Noah’s ark carrying the last vestiges of humanity. This kind of out-and-out allegory didn’t make it into either series, but it’s interesting that some people would bristle at the religion aspect. Hey, guess what? Sometimes I watch “medium” with my wife, and even though I don’t believe in psychic powers, it doesn’t detract from my enjoyment of the show.

    Comment by David Adams — March 25, 2009 @ 3:51 pm

15. I guess you can say I have a prejudice against religion, and I definitely doesn’t like it in my entertainment — especially when that entertainment is science fiction-based.

    Comment by Eugenia — March 25, 2009 @ 10:22 pm

16. I have been trying to tell you for a few comments now that BSG is only about god because we interpret it as such. Is the spider/ant analogy really that difficult to understand? If so, let me come up with another one.

    Say that we invented time travel tomorrow, and that we travel to a time when we were still living in caves. We would have computers with us, advanced technology, weapons, you name it. How would the cavemen react? How would they most likely perceive us?

    Exactly. As gods. That doesn’t make us gods, though.

    Now imagine that we were visited by people 200000 years from the future. They probably left the constraints of the human body behind long ago, and come with technology that we couldn’t even begin to fathom. How would we react? How would we perceive them?

    Exactly. As gods. That doesn’t make them gods, though.

    Is a lightbulb starting to flicker by now? I’m not saying he BSG “god” and “angels” are mighty spacemen from the future - all I’m saying is that a being like the one in BSG is far beyond our comprehension, and the easiest way to describe it would be “god” - however, that doesn’t make it one.

    Comment by Administrator — March 25, 2009 @ 10:31 pm

17. You don’t understand my point either though. If the BSG people were interpreting that being as God, then they deserved to all die along the rest 50 billion people who did. Because I would be watching and investing in a story for 4 years, story that contained people who were STUPID. They had interstellar capabilities, and yet, they were still stupid. I can’t have stupid people in my scifi entertainment. Scifi is supposed to be about SMART people.

    Not even having Baltar — a scientist for God’s sake — trying to find the truth about what these beings really are, it’s just a disgrace to scifi.

    Comment by Eugenia — March 25, 2009 @ 10:38 pm

18. Scifi is supposed to be about SMART people.

    Thats not true. Scifi is about speculations based on current and future science and/or technology. When you watch other movies, TV shows, and read books of this nature, you find advance people who are still have human nature. There is a difference between “smart people” and “wise people”.

    Put your self in the people of Galactica’s shoes. From the beginning, many people had come out and said that they do not believe in the Gods/God. However as time goes forth the strain on their physical bodies and minds (little happy moment, betrayal, death, more death, more betrayal, little happy moment, cylons just destroyed the ship next to yours, etc.) has lead them to want to believe in something that is permeant, while their lives are not.

    I understand your view point because I am also disappointed in the show’s finale and I am an atheist. If they had more time to spread things out, instead of covering everyone with a lot of religious ideals in just 2 hours, I think everyone would have been happier and more understanding of the show. There is a growing percentage of people who do not believe in religion. Some can be attributed to people throwing their beliefs at you without your consent. Unfortunately, thats what the finale felt to me.

    However, religion is not stupid. People have the right to believe in something, just as you have the right to not believe in something. People who have religion (and I mean no offense to anyone) need something to protect themselves with, like a blanket. This blanket can shield their minds from the many aspects of life. If a person’s mother dies, that person is happy to believe that their mother is also happy. If an earthquake happens, it’s a sign from God to change something about yourself that you might not have thought of doing before. With Galactica, people were able to take comfort knowing that their Gods, their blankets, were still with them. Baltar found himself needing something in the end. He never claimed that he was God or fully believed in God, but he was able to find faith in himself, which lead to others following him and want a piece of his “blanket”.

    My point being: People who are religious are NOT stupid. People who have advanced technology, science, and how we lived to day were/are religious. Did the new BSG have a lot of religion? Yes. Did the old BSG, of which I believe you never watched, have a lot of religion? Yes. To this extent? No, but that was the director’s call. Just as it will be for the up coming ST movie that will piss a lot of people off (or already is…). Directors and people who create shows only do it to please one person: themselves. Other people can find they like/dislike it but it was not created for you. You should not be taking this much offense, it was not meant to be yours nor the Lee/Kara shippers (who are all planning mass murder at the moment). Do what I am going to do; buy/rent the show, watch it from the beginning, and ignore/don’t watch/whatever to the final episode.

    Sigh. It was more amusing when old BSG got to earth. Ah the good old days.

    Comment by Kim — March 26, 2009 @ 3:10 pm

19. Oops. Sorry, forgot to close the code! Edit! Edit! :D

    Comment by Kim — March 26, 2009 @ 3:12 pm

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